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	<title>Comments on: JC Carter: My 2 cents on School Vouchers</title>
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	<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/</link>
	<description>THE BLOG - Always On Message</description>
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		<title>By: Triecelew</title>
		<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/comment-page-1/#comment-6947</link>
		<dc:creator>Triecelew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/#comment-6947</guid>
		<description>You don&#039;t really need or want that lifestyle, it might hurt y&#039;all slowly more.......Just tell him you 
don&#039;t wanna repeat something your not too proud of z7uas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t really need or want that lifestyle, it might hurt y&#8217;all slowly more&#8230;&#8230;.Just tell him you<br />
don&#8217;t wanna repeat something your not too proud of z7uas.</p>
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		<title>By: Sgt_Jake</title>
		<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/comment-page-1/#comment-3700</link>
		<dc:creator>Sgt_Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 19:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/#comment-3700</guid>
		<description>My kid is in Challenger too (pre-k), and it&#039;s true - Challenger won&#039;t accept vouchers anyway.
 
	I&#039;ll confess to being for vouchers. Utah&#039;s public education system complains too much in general and specifically. They don&#039;t do what they really need to do to fight the system: Make it painful for the parents (cancel sports and after school actives outright for starters - see how fast they get more money then). It&#039;s management heavy, bureaucratically slow and when it gets right down to it, they&#039;re just not very good. The sad thing is that there are *so many* shining examples to the contrary - dedicated teachers, outstanding programs and so on. And it pisses me off when the education department holds up these EXCEPTIONS as evidence they&#039;re doing a good job. The fact remains that Utah&#039;s students *on average* cannot compete with most of the rest of the country. For all of our good intentions, our kids are getting left behind. 
	The schools are over populated, under staffed, and failing federal guidelines which will only lead to more guidelines and federal oversight and regulation, which simply adds up to even less money for the students and teachers at even greater expense. Vouchers take students out of public schools at the personal expense of those who choose it, making public class sizes smaller. Smaller classes means more attention for the kids, and (hopefully) better grades. Better grades means more federal money and less oversight. It many or may not work out, but conflict breeds effort and competition - something sorely missing from Utah&#039;s education department.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My kid is in Challenger too (pre-k), and it&#8217;s true &#8211; Challenger won&#8217;t accept vouchers anyway.</p>
<p>	I&#8217;ll confess to being for vouchers. Utah&#8217;s public education system complains too much in general and specifically. They don&#8217;t do what they really need to do to fight the system: Make it painful for the parents (cancel sports and after school actives outright for starters &#8211; see how fast they get more money then). It&#8217;s management heavy, bureaucratically slow and when it gets right down to it, they&#8217;re just not very good. The sad thing is that there are *so many* shining examples to the contrary &#8211; dedicated teachers, outstanding programs and so on. And it pisses me off when the education department holds up these EXCEPTIONS as evidence they&#8217;re doing a good job. The fact remains that Utah&#8217;s students *on average* cannot compete with most of the rest of the country. For all of our good intentions, our kids are getting left behind.<br />
	The schools are over populated, under staffed, and failing federal guidelines which will only lead to more guidelines and federal oversight and regulation, which simply adds up to even less money for the students and teachers at even greater expense. Vouchers take students out of public schools at the personal expense of those who choose it, making public class sizes smaller. Smaller classes means more attention for the kids, and (hopefully) better grades. Better grades means more federal money and less oversight. It many or may not work out, but conflict breeds effort and competition &#8211; something sorely missing from Utah&#8217;s education department.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/comment-page-1/#comment-3690</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/#comment-3690</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a big fan of Challenger.  My pre-K kid is going there now.  I asked them about vouchers and they said they won&#039;t take them even if the legislation passes.  They don&#039;t want the state butting into their business.  I don&#039;t blame them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a big fan of Challenger.  My pre-K kid is going there now.  I asked them about vouchers and they said they won&#8217;t take them even if the legislation passes.  They don&#8217;t want the state butting into their business.  I don&#8217;t blame them.</p>
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		<title>By: JC Carter</title>
		<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/comment-page-1/#comment-3688</link>
		<dc:creator>JC Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/#comment-3688</guid>
		<description>D&#039;oh! bad math on my part! Yes, it was around $200/month for what they called &quot;Pre-K&quot;, which is basically Kindergarten in public school. The next year, my cost would have gone up exponentially. Add to that the cost of uniforms, materials, etc., it would have been overly spendy. The average cost  for Challenger is around $11000/year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D&#8217;oh! bad math on my part! Yes, it was around $200/month for what they called &#8220;Pre-K&#8221;, which is basically Kindergarten in public school. The next year, my cost would have gone up exponentially. Add to that the cost of uniforms, materials, etc., it would have been overly spendy. The average cost  for Challenger is around $11000/year.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Harris</title>
		<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/comment-page-1/#comment-3687</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/#comment-3687</guid>
		<description>Waitaminute... you said you spent $200/mo on tuition at Challenger but that a $3000 voucher wouldn&#039;t cover that? I&#039;m confused... mainly because I thought tuition was much higher than that. (Not trying to nitpick, just making sure the numbers are right.)

Jeremy: Utahns love their public schools because they&#039;re &quot;free&quot; and Utahns are notoriously, er, &quot;frugal&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Waitaminute&#8230; you said you spent $200/mo on tuition at Challenger but that a $3000 voucher wouldn&#8217;t cover that? I&#8217;m confused&#8230; mainly because I thought tuition was much higher than that. (Not trying to nitpick, just making sure the numbers are right.)</p>
<p>Jeremy: Utahns love their public schools because they&#8217;re &#8220;free&#8221; and Utahns are notoriously, er, &#8220;frugal&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: JC Carter</title>
		<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/comment-page-1/#comment-3684</link>
		<dc:creator>JC Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/#comment-3684</guid>
		<description>Heh... I just noticed that the title of my post is now: &quot;JC Carter: My 2 cents...&quot; and my picture is included... I guess JM is tired of people not paying attention to the &quot;posted by&quot; and thinking he wrote my posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh&#8230; I just noticed that the title of my post is now: &#8220;JC Carter: My 2 cents&#8230;&#8221; and my picture is included&#8230; I guess JM is tired of people not paying attention to the &#8220;posted by&#8221; and thinking he wrote my posts.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/comment-page-1/#comment-3682</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/#comment-3682</guid>
		<description>Great post.  I&#039;m against vouchers but I have to admit that a good portion of my angst against this plan lies in the fact that the tactics and arguments used by its supporters are often so offensive.  

I can see that vouchers are a great idea in places where the school systems are absolutly screwed up.  I can also see that it isn&#039;t necessary for the state to micro-manage private schools under a voucher plan because the market could do a decent job keeping the hucksters from succeeding.  

My biggest concerns are:

A - I don&#039;t think Utahns want to send their kids to private schools because our public system has been doing a great job even when we fund it on the cheap.  Utah has a far lower percentage of our students in private schools than nearly any other state in the nation even though there are some relatively cheap private schools available here.  This system will end up mainly subsidizing only those who wouldn&#039;t have ever put their kids in public schools in the first place.  We don&#039;t need a new entitlement for these people.

B - I don&#039;t think using tax dollars to subsidize FLDS, LDS, Muslim, KKK, or any other philisophically based schools is a good idea.  This plan would allow that to happen.  I get miffed when the legislators even suggest bringing up the idea of creationism in public school science classes.  The idea that I&#039;d have to pay taxes to support an entire class on the topic really leaves me cold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.  I&#8217;m against vouchers but I have to admit that a good portion of my angst against this plan lies in the fact that the tactics and arguments used by its supporters are often so offensive.  </p>
<p>I can see that vouchers are a great idea in places where the school systems are absolutly screwed up.  I can also see that it isn&#8217;t necessary for the state to micro-manage private schools under a voucher plan because the market could do a decent job keeping the hucksters from succeeding.  </p>
<p>My biggest concerns are:</p>
<p>A &#8211; I don&#8217;t think Utahns want to send their kids to private schools because our public system has been doing a great job even when we fund it on the cheap.  Utah has a far lower percentage of our students in private schools than nearly any other state in the nation even though there are some relatively cheap private schools available here.  This system will end up mainly subsidizing only those who wouldn&#8217;t have ever put their kids in public schools in the first place.  We don&#8217;t need a new entitlement for these people.</p>
<p>B &#8211; I don&#8217;t think using tax dollars to subsidize FLDS, LDS, Muslim, KKK, or any other philisophically based schools is a good idea.  This plan would allow that to happen.  I get miffed when the legislators even suggest bringing up the idea of creationism in public school science classes.  The idea that I&#8217;d have to pay taxes to support an entire class on the topic really leaves me cold.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Can</title>
		<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/comment-page-1/#comment-3680</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Can</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/#comment-3680</guid>
		<description>You said: 

&quot;Also, why can’t parents who choose to home school their kids get this money? Shouldn’t they be entitled to a tax break if they’re not using the public schools?&quot;

How about those people who don&#039;t have children or never plan to have children?  Should they also get a tax break?  They&#039;re not using the public schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You said: </p>
<p>&#8220;Also, why can’t parents who choose to home school their kids get this money? Shouldn’t they be entitled to a tax break if they’re not using the public schools?&#8221;</p>
<p>How about those people who don&#8217;t have children or never plan to have children?  Should they also get a tax break?  They&#8217;re not using the public schools.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Staheli</title>
		<link>http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/comment-page-1/#comment-3674</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Staheli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jmbell.org/blog/2007/09/19/my-2-cents-on-school-vouchers/#comment-3674</guid>
		<description>You say

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Now I want to vote for vouchers as punishment for campaigning with bad data, and I want to vote against vouchers as punishment for insulting my intelligence…
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Good point.  I agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You say</p>
<blockquote><p>
Now I want to vote for vouchers as punishment for campaigning with bad data, and I want to vote against vouchers as punishment for insulting my intelligence…
</p></blockquote>
<p>Good point.  I agree.</p>
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